What do they know?
I’ve just been watching this video of President Hinckley talking about the Mormon church’s attitude to its gay members and listening to him say that people who aren’t married have to “discipline themselves”, meaning that they have to refrain from having sex outside of marriage.
I often thought, as a single person in the church, that it was all very well for the leaders – almost all of whom married in their early 20s – to tell people who were unmarried in their 20’s and 30’s, or who were gay and according to the church should never marry, that they should remain celibate. They talked glibly about “waiting for marriage” without any comprehension of how difficult it was to want a physical relationship and not be able to have one. What did they know of loneliness and longing? They were not the least bit concerned that they were telling people to deny their natural instincts and making them feel guilty for wanting something that married people took for granted.
It frustrated me as an active church member and infuriates me now, when I hear church leaders pontificate about abstinence, even for people in loving, committed relationships outside of marriage. By refusing to countenance gay marriage, or even civil unions, they are blithely condemning many of their fellow human beings to a whole lifetime without the fulfilment of sexual intimacy. I think that’s the height of uncomprehending arrogance.
Isla
The Mutt's Nuts 
Abstance is the way to go! I have been where you are and have longed for that physical contact. I have also beguiled myself into the disposition of having that intimate contact prior to marrige, and I have come to regret it. I regret it not due to somebody saying I should not have done it or anything like that. I have cheepened my marrage when I did find my life partner.
The message is true that the road of extra-maritial sex leads to sorrow. But if that is what you want… well what are you listening to reason for? you will end up doing whae evey you think you want.
ditchu
March 18, 2008 at 4:45 am
As a Mormon, I chose abstinence, and while I married at 22, still experienced much loneliness and longing for an intimate physical relationship. I believe this is the reason why many people of religious faiths that encourage abstinence marry young. Just because someone marries young doesn’t mean they know nothing of this longing.
wardfunk
March 18, 2008 at 4:47 am
ditchu
Your regret is because of your attitude towards sex. If you felt differently, you might consider that having prior sexual experience actually enhanced your marriage. Some people prefer a more experienced partner rather than one who is fumbling about not knowing what they’re doing!
I don’t think you can generalise that having sex before marriage leads to sorrow at all. That may have been your experience, but I’m sure a lot of people would disagree.
BTW, I have been happily married for nearly 14 years, but still feel annoyed at the patronising remarks of Mormon leaders on behalf of the people I know who are still single.
wardfunk
I can say quite categorically that someone who marries young has no clue about what it’s like to have to wait until they’re 30, 40 or even older. At age 22, you still expect to marry, by 30 you hope you’ll marry and by 40 you probably despair of ever finding a suitable marriage partner, especially if you live in an area where Mormons are few and far between. Added to that is the pain of having to watch your contemporaries bearing and raising children while your biological clock ticks inexorably on, sometimes until it’s too late.
The church adds to the problem by not only demanding abstinence, but also emphasising the importance of marrying another member in good standing who can take you to the temple. If you live in an area where there aren’t many members of any age, let alone eligible ones, this is yet another stumbling block to finding a mate. Many of my LDS friends didn’t marry until their 30s or even early 40s for just this reason. I know one who is still unmarried (and a virgin, I’m sure) at age 52. Believe me, you really have no idea what she has gone through as a single woman in the Mormon church for all these years.
I agree that the prohibition on sex before marriage probably causes many Mormons to marry young. Unfortunately, I’ve seen too many such marriages end in dissatisfaction, disaster and divorce.
islaskye
March 18, 2008 at 7:31 pm
islaskye you said “Your regret is because of your attitude towards sex. If you felt differently, you might consider that having prior sexual experience actually enhanced your marriage.”
How do you presume how I feel? My regret has nothing to do with my attitude toward sex, It is the respect I give my spouse, that I regret that in my selfishness I could not wait. I knew enough about sex before I expierenced it… Sex is one of thoes things that if you do not know what you’re doing you shouldn’t be doing it.
“Some people prefer a more experienced partner…” More experience? Or do you mean perversion? How much exposure does one need before they are ready to get married? Sex for recreation and relaxation only, does lead to sorrow, I do know this from personal experience, but also I have understood this from several people and their experiences. Before you think I am talking about other “Mormons” or other people who sex in the same way I do, I am not. I have sopken long ago to some close friends and they tell me there seems almost no point in sex anymore, their relations crumble and the plesure they gain only lasts a short time, others I have seen the disloyality in their lives because they do not concern themselves with the sacredness of this physical act. If you want to argue with these experiences, you’d best do that by showing me one experience that extra-marital sex lead to a satisifying and healthy place, and lets not bring up people who have had sex with someone then married them, that is not what I’m talking about when I say extra-maritial.
If you think there is another destination at the end of that road, you may not have come to it yet.
ditchu
March 18, 2008 at 9:05 pm
BTW, If you “still feel annoyed at the patronising remarks of Mormon leaders on behalf of the people I know who are still single.” Then I suggest you don’t listen to these messages that do not pretain to you. Why do you let it anger you to have some good advice go to someone else? I would think that we would respect good advice reaching the intended reviever unless it is a feeling og guilt that you experience, that usually brings the Depression cycle, Guilt, Denyal, anger, Acceptance, depression…
ditchu
March 18, 2008 at 9:11 pm
ditchu
Are you sure we’re talking about the same thing? You keep referring to extra-marital sex, which is having sex with someone else when you’re married. I’m talking about pre-marital sex – having sex with someone before you’re married.
Of course your attitude to sex contributes to your regret. You wrote that you consider sex to be sacred, which I presume is why you wished you’d saved yourself for your spouse. You also said that sex for relaxation or recreation leads to sorrow. I’m sure most people would disagree. People have sex for all sorts of reasons, even after marriage. Sometimes it is sacred and special, other times it’s spontaneous and fun. Categorising sex as “sacred” means missing out on all the other great reasons for being intimate with someone.
When I said that some people may prefer a more sexually experienced partner, that’s exactly what I meant. Not a perverted partner, an experienced one. My husband had sex before we met and married, yet he is certainly not perverted. He’s loving and sensitive and knows how to make me feel good.
I don’t understand how having sex before you met and married your spouse can “cheapen” your marriage. It has nothing to do with the relationship you build with your spouse. Loving and honouring your spouse every day is the important thing. As I mentioned, my husband had sex with someone else before we met and married, but I didn’t feel that he had “cheapened” the relationship that he and I subsequently had together. It was all in the past. I just knew that he loved me enough to want to commit himself to me for the rest of his life. There is nothing cheap about that. It’s beautiful. I didn’t feel cheated because I wasn’t the first person he had sex with. I knew he was a normal man who had done what normal men do. His past doesn’t in any way diminish how much he loves me, nor how much I love him. To think that it would is crazy, in my opinion.
Because it’s not good advice at all. And I didn’t say I was angry, I said I was annoyed.
Why would I feel guilty? I haven’t done anything wrong!
IslaSkye
March 19, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Ditchu,
***Sex is one of thoes things that if you do not know what you’re doing you shouldn’t be doing it.***
Codswallop. Nobody fully knows what they’re doing when they first embark on sex. Therefore, according to your reasoning (and I use that term loosely), there shouldn’t be anybody doing it. Not knowing what you’re doing is all part of the adventure.
Curmudgeonly Yours
March 19, 2008 at 9:03 pm
You all are taking my comments too far to the extream. I stated exactlly what I think on the issue and you have polerized my comments.
I’ll let you in on something… “I don’t understand how having sex before you met and married your spouse can “cheapen” your marriage.” well it will always be there in the back of his mind every time he thinks about sex he will have those experiences he had with others lingering in him mind. That may cheepen the relationship. However I hope and beleive that the impact can be less if one is trully commited and I am glad that you have one of those relationships. Also, I appologize my misunderstanding of your posts with the guilt statment. I would not want you to feel guilty… I do not think any wrong doing is going on here…
“***Sex is one of thoes things that if you do not know what you’re doing you shouldn’t be doing it.*** Codswallop. Nobody fully knows what they’re doing when they first embark on sex.”
The discussion was not on fully knowing about sex before you begin. My comment was if you know nothing of it you should not do it. I do not get the Better understand of how to please a woman/man if you have more experience. Sex only gets better in a commited relationship.
ditchu
March 20, 2008 at 12:23 am
Ditchu,
***You all are taking my comments too far to the extream. I stated exactlly what I think on the issue and you have polerized my comments.***
If you’re going to make either/or statements or say things like “Sex for recreation and relaxation only, does lead to sorrow” then you’re going to find yourself polarised, whether you like it or not. That there are people in the world that have sex recreationally and are happy doing so makes your generalisation untrue.
People reading your replies have only your remarks to judge you by. If you feel that you’re being misunderstood perhaps you should take more care how you reflect yourself in your statements.
Curmudgeonly
March 20, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Reading through these comments I think it is amazing that people have been indoctrinated to the point of believing so many unfounded and sexually repressive myths perpetrated by those that wanted to control the masses. Well actually I am sure the sex stuff started as a way to scare people from having sex in the days before birth control and unwanted pregnancies resulting in unwanted children were a big problem.
Let me pose this moral question, what is more immoral and dishonest, meeting someone and marrying them in an extremely short period of time, which is very common by those that believe in abstinence before marriage, and end up marrying someone that you really can’t know that well and make a life commitment when you are really motivated by your hormones or taking your time getting to know the person falling in love including having sex and then eventually marrying and committing to that person for reasons that go way beyond waiting to get laid?
My first marriage I did it the Mormon way, my second time around I did it the healthy non dysfunctional co-dependent way and the fact that we had sex before marriage and that we both had sex with others before being together has no impact on how deep and meaningful our relationship is. In fact in some ways I think it helps me to appreciate my wife even that much more as a result of actually having real life experience to draw from.
Plus the argument of if you aren’t a virgin can hurt and diminish or cheapen a marriage is ridiculous that being the case then you are saying that if I am a virgin when I get married and my spouse passes away then if I am to remarry then that relationship will be something less because I have already had sex.
coventryrm
March 21, 2008 at 12:05 am
1.“Sex for recreation and relaxation only, does lead to sorrow” I stand by this in the immediate it seems pleasurable but when that relationship or “whatever” ends there is naught left but sorrow.
2. when you remary, did your first marrage end? many marrages end at death but I am commited beyound the mortal.
BTW – I do not care what you do… The advice is given to help people make their disicions to avoid this sorrow.
ditchu
March 21, 2008 at 12:13 am
“2. when you remary, did your first marrage end? many marrages end at death but I am commited beyound the mortal.”
I got divorced both from a dysfuctional marriage and church.
You can just get sealed to someone else remember there is Polygamy in the afterlife, so will that cheapen the second marriage relationship? Interesting thought so all the reasons you use for having sex with only one person how does that apply to ploygamy those second, third and fourth wives etc sure get a bum deal then.
coventryrm
March 21, 2008 at 12:34 am
Personally I believe in monogamy, in this life and for eternity. Polygamy, you can have that if you want but for me, all I want is one wife, and I have the best peoson ever for one too. It has been my observation that in pologamy households that it seems there is a first wife and a second wife and that the “Lesser” wives do get a bum deal, but this comes by way of movies and documentaries, not personal experience or people I have met.
on another note, sorry to hear of your devorce, but getting out of a relationship that does not function is about as good a reason to devorce as I know. hope all stays well as you have privously stated that your current union is.
ditchu
March 21, 2008 at 4:42 am
Ditchu,
***I stand by this…***
I had no doubt that you would, despite being completely wrong.
***…in the immediate it seems pleasurable but when that relationship or “whatever” ends there is naught left but sorrow.***
But there are a lot of adults who have consenting sex with whoever happens to take their fancy, where relationship ties are absent, so stubbornly standing by your remark that recreational sex “only leads to sorrow” is plainly silly. It’s truer to believe that only some people will find themselves sorrowful after a bout of casual rumpy-pumpy.
Curmudgeonly
March 21, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Ditchu you are absolutely right those like you that have been indoctrinated and sexually repressed are going to have all the issues and feelings you describe, doesn’t mean that there is any true law of God or nature at work but just proves that there is just a lot of self hate and guilt as result of what you personally believe and accept, I find it interesting that your strict belief in this does not allow you to fully appreciate and embrace your marriage but on the other hand has you feeling like “I have cheepened my marrage when I did find my life partner.” how sad.
“I’ll let you in on something… “I don’t understand how having sex before you met and married your spouse can “cheapen” your marriage.” well it will always be there in the back of his mind every time he thinks about sex he will have those experiences he had with others lingering in him mind.”
That is some really messed up stuff and based on the untruths that have been pounded into your head every time you take a sip of that Kool Aid I can tell you first hand that when I am with my wife, perhaps because I don’t have all those messed up ideas regarding sex, replaying sexual experiences is not playing in my head unless I want it to be. It sounds like you must be in constant battle and conflict with your own sexuality. There is absolutely no data or study on human sexuality or psychology that would even substantiate anything you have to say on the subject. Your kind of advice is what continues to mess up people from generation to generation. For a bit of levity here I will quote George Carlin speaking about true (rapists and molesters) sex crimes “You could just outlaw religion and most of these sex crimes would disappear in a few generations”
coventryrm
March 21, 2008 at 3:42 pm
From one islaskye to an other… let it go and get a life – PLEASE!
Islaskye
March 21, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Islaskye – and I’m not referring to the author of this blog entry! – it’s plainly obviously that you feel that you have something of worth to say, so why don’t you elaborate (or are one liners all you do?), that way the person who you’re replying to might be able to judge whether or not you’re the sort of person that she should be taking advice from.
Curmudgeonly
March 21, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Hello Curmudgeonly,
Mmmm, afraid, unlike your eloquent self, I shall have to think long and hard to give a proper and in depth reply. Unfortunately, I am about to go out and live a life this evening. However, I shall get back to you asap.
Love ya,
Islaskye
Islaskye
March 21, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Islaskye,
A comment such as yours – “let it go and get a life” – irritates me, mainly because it assumes that you’re acquainted with the life of my wife, when actually what you know is next to nothing.
Curmudgeonly
March 21, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Aw man, got tae go… taxi tootin’. Your ‘wife’ been bloggin for long enough for the world and his ‘wife’to at least get a handle on what she’s about – get real! You shouldn’t take life so seriously… might improve your looks 🙂
Islaskye
March 21, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Oooh, you’ve got an internet stalker! How exciting!
kuri
March 21, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Kuri,
You can have him, if you want. I hope that he clicks on your name. And “exciting” is not a word I would use to describe this situation.
Curmudgeonly
March 21, 2008 at 10:31 pm
I was being ironic, because what you actually have is the world’s most boring troll.
kuri
March 21, 2008 at 10:44 pm
I must be getting slow, as I can usually read irony. I guess it’s time to stop feeding the troll. Thanks for the heads up.
Curmudgeonly
March 21, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Hey Kurio,
How did you guess I was a Troll?! Blimey!!!
Islaskye
March 22, 2008 at 4:11 am
Hey, big blue tattie puddin’ face
chieften o’ the x-mormon race, Im not a boy! I’m a very naughty Troll…
Islaskye
March 22, 2008 at 4:16 am